Brought to you by one hundred point: nine can new fm community radio from the halliburton highlands visit, canoe, fm, dot, com for more missus loyd robertson, your listings, who seek age eight, one hundred and nine flew m community radio. For the. However, in the highlands hello, i'm terry more- and this is planet halliburton, planet haliburton takes a critical look at the human impact on ecosystems, to support all life on the planet, from the climate crisis to the health of haliburton lakes and forests to how we manage human and material waste plan, halliburton sees global and local perspectives as two sides of the same coin. We value your comments, questions and suggestions. So please email me: a planet, halliburton, a canoe, fm dot com, simmer the sixty thousand eighteen legislation, putting an end to the twenty five year; long ontario experiment with an independent office of the environmental commissioner receiver. I was sent with the passage of that build doug form was well on his way to silencing ineffective critic of his plans to execute a hard reboot on climate change and other crucial ecological policy fronts, with a legal mandate to report directly to the legislative assembly on an annual basis about how well the government environmental performance matched its environmental rhetoric. Successive environmental commissioners had a history of telling inconvenient truth. Diane sacks was the third and last, as it turns out environmental commissioner monti on came into office just as climate change and the political wrangling over what to do about. It was taking centre stage on both a national and provincial levels. All across the country doug ford, selectness premier, on june, seventh, two thousand eighteen followed a campaign that relentlessly attack the former wing governments, cap and trade approach to putting a price on carbon as a job killing tax. On everything. Few doubted that the ford government would quickly become irritated by diane's access, high profile, environmental advocacy work, including her insistence that we were on a full blown climate emergency and governments at all levels needed to start acting like it. But most thought for would simply replace acts after five year term expired in two thousand and twenty installing some one less committed to defending the environment in her place, but for its desire to silence the messenger was clearly underestimated and, following the passage of built, fifty seven entitled restoring trust, transparency and accountability in december two thousand and thirteen, the last report to be issued by an independent environmental commissioner, ontario on the state in an energy conservation, was tabled in the legislative assembly on march, twenty seventh, two thousand nineteen, as we will soon be coming up to the one year anniversary of the tabling of that last report by non tariff environmental. Commissioner, we thought we checking with diane sacks for her take on what the ford government has been up to for the past year when a welcome your back to planet, halliburton, diane, alcoholic cool. So before we get into what your former position as environmental commissioner was as well as the consequences of its elimination. Can you remind planet, haliburton listeners of what you did prior to becoming the environmental commissioner ventre on two thousand fifteen? I was energy and environmental lawyer for forty years i got in my career in ontario public service i took awaken, got a phd in environmental law and then i went into private practice. I ran a small but very successful environmental law to take practice for twenty five years and i gave it all up to become appointed as the third environmental commissioner of ontario and by the way the government doesn't get to appoint the commissioner. Please can only be appointed unanimously by legislators. The whole requirement to be unanimously supported by not whereby all party, by all parties or by our party, new working, ok so in your former life, then as environmental commissioner, the third environmental commissioner in ontario, you reported annually to the legislative assembly on the effectiveness or lack thereof, a government policy actions regarding things like climate change, environmental protection, energy conservation. You also had responsibility for the environmental bill of rights and the environmental registry. Why was an independent office of the environment committee created in the first place, and what do you think onto ruins have lost with the passage a bill? Fifty seven and the elimination of your former office- i heard my french always as guardian of the environmental celebrate the whole point of the environmental celebrated. The environment is too important to be left just to government. We learn that the hard way during decades of disaster and within government environment is too important to be left just to the maritime environment is a comparatively small ministry with limited influence on the western governments. The public has right thunders environmental deliberating. The government has a lot of obligations and the government does not automatically comply with its obligation. For example, one of the things i was appointed as commissioner. The government is obliged, when their considering environment significant proposal to postpone for public comment. They require to consider public comment. They required to report back to the public and how they considered public input and by the final decision was in that posting. The decision is really critical, because there's no public doesn't have a right to appeal until the government post the decision here you can get a sense of how much you can trust the government to comply by itself for the family. When i was appointed, there were one thousand eight hundred document examples where the government has made a decision and not posted, which meant that the people affected. I think sixty three cases, including gravel tat, never had their right to appeal to it. This was a well intentioned government that was the prisoner, was positive about environmental issues that were strong minister environment and even so, compliance with a bill was comparatively low. It took a lot of work she being an encouraging and helping in reprimanding and meeting regularly with their spears and within a couple of years i got that down to about a hundred and sixty which were actually ongoing than whole row of helping the public use their rights under the environment of those rights and then chiding encouraging and helping and persuading increasingly government to comply with its obligation. That was gone, i gotta admit, says i'll. Do it? I got for that, introducing the torch to the hen house in distant. That's because the responsibility for the environmental biller rights has been transferred back to the ministry of the environment, which means in canada right that's the point and is now i'm sure, people to call for help immediately permeated the whole world on the second part of my job. In what i spend most of my time on is, i was required by law. He provide accountability to the public, a minimum of three reports here, one on energy, one on environment and one on climate change, and in fact i delivered haven't seen reports during my time as commissioner, there are still available on my website. It tracks back dot com because it directly broken my office was abolished and we heard from thousands of people a crackling carrying their reports were extraordinarily valuable sources of information that people, st andrews, the people just don't get anywhere else and the other thing that we did, which was then i did a commission which had never been done before, is weak. Try our eyes open to the public. So i personally travelled all over ontario. I gave hundreds of talk to groups of all sizes we distributed. Tens of thousands of timorese who did westerners we distributed our introduction to the bill of rights and fifteen different languages, including through indigenous languages. We made our materials much more accessible to the public. Ever happened before many people. We told them where people lived in word may have easy access to introduce them, and so are you know. I was appointed as commissioners in the people and i didn't know. We had an environmental commissioner and when mr ford is a special legislation to break my contract and abolish my office most of the public strongly opposed the hour or oppose the opposite, love the disruption of my office, and i recognise that they will lose something. What they would lose was honest, reliable, non, partisan, detailed information about government policy and progress. Government of all stripes are really prone to green martians. They make and the announcements about how wonderful everything is which may or may not this actually days and then do they follow up, or they just turn a blind eye. The issues that are really important but haven't curve, for whatever reason made it onto the political list, having aim our independent non partisan view of these issues as well as looking at how they crossed ministry lines. There was nobody else who could do that new people? I personally do i still heavily used. So i just want to get into a little bit of a discussion about why things changed so much over that over the timeframe between them. The creation of the office for the environmental commissioner and then to the election of dug for political parties of all stripes were involved in writing the legislation that created the office environmental commissioner in the first place in your appointment, as you mentioned, was was confirmed. I think i i think it was unanimously concern by confirmed by all members of the legislative assembly when you were first when you were appointed it's it's so previous environment commissioner's in in my recollection, including, for example, gourd miller, were free to openly criticised government environmental policy, action or inaction, and the government of the day refrain from taking legislative action to silence that kind of criticism. What do you think changed with the election of dug for why the attack on your office after his election? Why now, when the short answer is i don't know why you have to ask them, and they are absolutely right that commissioner heard for twenty five years since then, they'll came into sacking point. Ninety nine for an escalation is both pray, then criticized all parties as including early as they could with cases of an expert staff, then the whole job of an independent watchdog. Gonna watch jungle jesse! Oh yes, yes, your wonderful, useless! Her! There wasn't anything from you why i was doing, except that it was more effective, precisely because we include in our report what your grass choosing infographic. So people can understand the fact that we had a single sheet for there that anybody could read. The fact we actively need are intimations easily available to people all across the problem. That was what was new and tearing down was a fine about doing our job better than ever gloomier. I guess you paid the price for putting their hands. Did you know that back the hand of me with the public? Not the government of the day it was specifically my job. Have the government, the guy. I guess i should never be my job to get going right, so i guess maybe you got in trouble because you bet the hand that controlled you. Ultimately, i dont use the power. That was my job right, so some functions that were performed by your former office haven't been completely eliminated. At least there. They are in some words and that that that sad survive built fifty seven, but they ve been reassigned to other people in one way, shape form or another. For example, the office of the auditor general has now assume responsibility for reporting to the legislative assembly on matters that your office used to focus on. Should they choose to do so? As i read the legislation likewise, others point to the instalment of jerry di marco as an assistant auditor general commissioner for the environment, i think he's called by the auditor general bonnie, realistic as proof positive that bill. Fifty seven was really only about doing things more effectively and saving taxpayers money. What do you say in response to these sorts of arguments? Has really been cutting of the office of the of the environmental commissioner is jerry di marco free to speak truth to power, as you were once they realise that it is true that the other situations report on energy- sometimes he can, if he wishes, report on climate change. Sometimes he can, if he wishes, report on other environmental issues. Here i think we have to do is to report on statistics relating to activities under the bill of rights. But the first thing is she may or may not do these things were, whereas i would require clear reply which does not even have an end to minimise, and you noticed in her annual report. She did have a section in hurry annual report which varied among many other things where she looked at her government, so called environment plan and pointed out that it wasn't based on evidence of mean all kinds, queens new evidence to back it up. But the first thing is that i am obliged to look at all of these three issues in detail every year and your report clearly the legislation, because all three of them are really important to the legislature. Now these are simply among the hundreds or thousands of issues that the auditor may choose to accord on in any particular year, more directly than she chooses as he carried the rifle. I certainly wish him well. He is, however, although his tight only a little bit similar to mine, his role is not. I had a specific statutory authority alone. I determine the content of my report. I deliver them to the legislative assembly to the public and i was actively engaged with the public to provide the public with access to information and analysis that we prepared, even at the federal level in canada. There is someone is a federal environmental, commissioner, is part of the audit carol office, but again she has specific statutory authority. She has specific responsibility. She threw the topics of our own reports. He determined was another point. She delivers them herself. She thinks that the public and the media- and i dont know whether anybody outside the other general's office knows what was always going this morning are diligent calendar exactly what she was doing. Nothing you. I did a google search and i have seen actively tried to find, unlike your former office, where it was very easy to find what you were doing in what you are saying and you are all over the place is impossible. I find it would jerry's doing exactly that. Sucker and i'll bet. You look at the climate report that was included in the environmental and the new general support. If you compare it to my last report, it's almost inaccessible to the public is lots and lots of words is no infographic gave no account can make it comprehensible to the general public accessible to the general public, and this is something that we really work time, because people are very busy very few people have the time or the ability to sit down and wait long export. That's that's just not accessible to the general public, so i guess it has with the government the physically from goods people these days from using infographic from that kind of thing can make more understandable. Specifically, this allows peoples. Well, we certainly when we were in arbitrary off, though he didn't traction, no graphics, no photos now that you're better than that would reduce the competent regulator. Point tell that you did not have the authority to give priority to me. I didn't housing interesting interesting, so i mean i guess we can say that in some sense built fifty seven was successful in driving conversation and the sharing of the light on exactly what the government is doing or not doing into the background. I agree. Absolutely i mean, are you say, i've been fired four year on your office is situated on the thirty first of march since that time. During that time, i would hit hard by law. A minimum of three report kept one on each and when we had separate appointed dead, man bear the public and the press had time to actually absorb at least a couple of points that usually all the present time for a couple of points in each report right and instead, we might have had special reports, which we get from time to time. Instead of that, what you heard is one part of a large body. General's report dealt with a limited climate. Critic may also say from personal pig, pretty close attention to the reports on its activities you and you engage in and to make sure that people understood what was in those reports was that there was a king. There was a very considerable investment in public engagement and the arming of all sorts of local organizations with important information, so they could act on their own. With respect to some of the concerns that you are raising money back, you doubtless my job as guardian environment, that no longer so your office was required to report to the legislative assembly at least once a year on climate change, greenhouse gas emission reduction targets in the knowledge that progress towards that of any other state of the environmental protection efforts, so that that were engaged in by government and the ontario entire governance. Energy conservation efforts. Can you give us your take on with the four governments record has been over the past year since they eliminated your office in each of those areas? Could we start maybe with climate change policies and their strategy, or lack thereof, with respect to greenhouse gas reduction and again with my two reports separately in each of those right through the the short answer you nobody else right, we didn't get a report for the air there with a whole year's worth of research and effort that went in to waiting those report and nobody doing their work now. So we don't know for sure everything governments doing or what ever you can either raised up in tat. The best of my knowledge, the situation today is even worse than it was when i issued my climate report in the fall of twenty eighteen, which documented the destruction of the five hundred and fifty or even programmes that we had to deal with climate change, the carrying out of the seven hundred and fifty to clean power contract, the enormous kick in the teeth being given to indigenous communities who were protesting from two hundred and sixteen of the contracts, the overruling the keyboard force, existing outcomes to subsidize new gas pipelines. All of those things to the best of my knowledge continue today, the only area that i know well, one other area that i know the exchange since my office was abolished, is that the government has tripled charged urban sprawl, great and weakening the growth plan, and urban sprawl is the largest driver of our climate policies on trade with oil sands and acts. Much worse now, under the ford government, burying one area of environmental policy. If the previous government not damaged, which was d the weight through and carry you back and in particular the proposal to move towards banning again online. So they haven't right arm, neither have been very aggressively to do, but at least they haven't entirely abandoned it. We may get from me eventually happening in that area. Amid a lot of reasons to do i decide from climate, including the enormous local opposition, they haven't landfills nearby contamination of groundwater, that it causes the air pollution that it causes, and so we might see there might be something there, but generally speaking and terry away from being a place, but with a real leader we had so much to be brought up to be a world language. We have so much to be seen that so, with respect to the first are binding on the climate change sort of toil. My understanding is that they didn't back away from some of the targets that were established by the previous labour government. Can you just? Did you speak to that man? What the significance of that might be of short, we didn't bagration. Had we had a climate law with legal and jacket for reducing pollution and two hundred and fifteen megatons guy, twenty thirty and tat legal pardon and the policies and programmes to support it, which included cap and trade and, as i mentioned time, contingency programme to invest the money from cap and trade in poultry and society will make us more efficient most that money by the way where to the public sector, schools, hospitals, municipalities, universities, public transit for public housing should make buildings and moisten efficient to bring in renewable energy in the autumn and gone there one in their first things. The government did. She tell me admiring the eleven thousand public comments that were submitted mary rapidly in the dollar. Twenty came the entirely without our climate, climate, mine included legal target to get down to a hundred fifteen, maybe ten, twenty thirty, which was critical. A critical element of candidates, international commitment under the paris agreement to commit a sitting target by twenty twenty three had been part of. That would be someone carriers, commitment towards the second biggest emitter in the country between a burden on cherry. We emit most of the pollution and the government through all that out and now we have no legal target at all. We have are fast. We ve targeted amounts to doing exactly almost nothing on the target that their government chose is exactly the same number again. There are settled out and says, i'm sure, you'll be out anyway. If the provincial government does nothing said, it was basically a target to do nothing. You mentioned urban sprawl and being kept on cereals. Oil sands can elaborate on that. As i understand that there's been a number of pieces of legislation tabled, including basically, removing regulations which inhibit growth on the on a local level in any way, shape or form in allowing or enabling municipalities to basically opt out of other kinds of legislative requirements in if it in fact creates economic growth and generates job creation. What what? What have they exactly done to enable the urban sprawl that you call the entourage oil sands oil about dramatically increased? The density target, for example, under the girl plan, had been fairly ineffective and falling snow was tightened in twenty seven p m that tried again pretty requirements and training member of my head. I think it wise eighty jobs or people per year, which is enough. You could actually support waking tremble, the government we come back to between forty and fifty job, the people. Perhaps there was reason enough to regulate, transit and often much higher, much much bigger wine consumption. Much that scare expansion, much more cause for municipalities are infrastructure. They also dramatically. We caught municipal powers to push back and game developers require better local women, humanity, control, shading attack natural heritage areas. They have dramatically weakened its easy to act which protected from areas that were habitat endangered species. You can now this paid account. Instead, they have increased the priority given to gravel pit for the gravel pit. Go more places industry more natural areas. Basically, what ever, whatever developer might one day can more easily the old stuff fast? One garden for the environment and climate consequences and guided the impacts on congestion. This will cause already oblige those kind of protection they just go this way. I have, of course the restoration of the municipal council could be given more power, the entering into boy used to routinely short stories to large farms, and they were opposed to wing government and give meaning to our independence bottom up and take my again so it seems to me that environmental regulations have become like a public enemy for the four german and basically treated as red tape. That's inhibiting economic growth and have to be removed the generality. But yes, i think on the whole, i have the same impression case, so i think you ve covered a number things with respect to environmental protection and energy conservation. The one thing that you talked about was that i wanted to just come back to momentarily. Was the instructions to the energy bore, with respect to public subsidies being extended to ghastly to the expansion of gas pipelines, natural gas pipelines? Could you to say a couple things about that, because in this in our neck of the woods, there is a significant pressure from the eastern ontario wardens carcass to expand the natural gas pipeline. For that now terminated terminates at finland falls into halliburton canny. So what? What? What are they? What have they done with respect to instructions to the energy bore with respect to enabling in subsidizing the expansion of natural gas pipelines there, any boy jack the gas company is applied, allowed the commission to extend the pipelines in force all existing gas customers can pay for it and the boys had? No, that's that's not, it will be. We didn't do it on climate grounds. They did it uneconomic ratification is nodding in the interest of existing gas customers so that travel over road that decision by legislation they do want, afford convincing gas customers decentralized, tat, move into new areas. Now the warden, whose i presume they want this because at the moment we can pay no attention to the climate consequences. Natural gas is a lot cheaper than electricity, so it farmers can reduce their costs, for example, drawing if they have access to a tight one. My point and crucial point in my office is that's exactly right. Are you considering the short term financial consequences and that's exactly what you wicked, when we only consider the short term financial consequences and we ignore the impact on an actual citizens. Lives depend what we end up doing is poisoning the natural systems in which a lighted candle do exactly the situation we now for people who care about climate change, expanding possible joint structures are really bad idea, so there has been a significant increase in public pressure for real climate change action within the last year, with the rise, for example, of the student climate change strikes and the resistance to large carbon intensive projects like the tec, frontier mine in alberta, theology, canada, pipeline a b c in the team ex pipeline project from alberto to the west coast, of course, need the blockades that are currently taking place of emphasising that opposition. Are you optimistic in any way shape or form that we're closer to your call for leaders at all levels to actually reflect the reality that were in a climate change emergency in what they were saying do well we'll share in that show? Many more people were hearings that were in trouble and i'm really heartened to see young people standing up. They are right to be frightened. They have every right to be angry sure our short term. We have the spoiled the natural world which stolen their heritage and their been paid the price for their right to be angry, and i'm really really excited and grateful to see them in the streets waving this with their family environment. Tat are more concerned. I heard him say it several times in public, but one of the things that keeps him going is that you create twelve daughter comes home, look from the eyes of daddy. You are not doing enough on climate change. That is a real impact. We need much more kids to their parents need to be parents and grandparents showing off for decades with the climate struck that changes, but other conversation. There are still enormous things we can do it. We voted locked in a lot of climate change. It's too late for completely avoid the problem, but it's not too late to make a big difference in what's coming and whether we choose to make a change in its wake amount is going to depend on political leaders and they're not going to act unless they hear over and over and over again from my constituents that climate action has to come here, and that is the real thing like not building new pipelines should expand. How much shouts a hue and burn the other solutions for people in other ways need a resolution by the government help that helps people we do do you call. This government has always been a backward funding to make homes and businesses more efficient. To give energy one is to push down the price of energy which increase of how much we use with crete words in their environmental problems, the other. Yet to do so much by making buildings more efficient by going to electric vehicles, which is a tiny fraction of the energy, the gas vehicles do and that's what we should be focusing public accurately. How can we help farmers, small businesses, people in rural areas? We do among energy that they need and had even more comfortable homes and businesses. So recently, the premium of ontario saskatchewan, a new brunswick, signed a joint memorandum to develop small scale nuclear reactors as a means of addressing the climate crisis, is least that was one of the elements that they emphasised in terms of why they entered into this memorandum. What's your take on this? Is this a smokescreen designed to deflect attention away from getting on with a hard job of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, or is there a role to be played by small scale nuclear power in addressing the climate crisis? How i think the answer is more aid. Indeed, i think it is a smoke screen now, when you punish these reactors built in place within a decade and we have to cut our emissions, have miscalculated. We want any kind of stable future in steering. Much seizure designs of nuclear power is passed more, but why or problems with it? No matter how you get there, what are you gonna do with the waste? Is the risk of accidents? It's always been very expensive, and solar and wind and storage costs have condemned so france, britain, in one place, nor of keeping our gas storage than anything else. So it might play a small role over the long run, but you're certainly not a major change baron i feel pretty. I think it highly light when it was adopted. Many of us know dream. You continue to be very active in promoting environmental action, since leaving horses being forced to leave the office of the environmental commissioner frontera eve created a group called sacks facts, for example, and you continued to give access to the reports that are now very difficult to find on much further, even possible through the otter general some website. What's the organization you ve set up sacks back? What's that? What's the purpose of that organization? And what role do you see for yourself playing multiple environmental crises continue to unfold down the road we have gained a good day. We could today, actually there efficiently reopen my law practice focusing on climate issues after forty five years and working. I only one work now on the things that really matter, and it is the one that is where they found nothing. Much else is going to matter what i've been, what the everything still doing, a lot of public parks. There i gave one last night to a group and building managers and operators. I still travel ontario meeting with. How are these councils business community grew. I met with the bishops of ontario, reviewing the climate crisis and the things we can do about it in a kind of resources are available to them. I'll. Do a lot of writing most of the pieces that i read a reprint on my website. Widgets tracks back start culminating courage, people dare i acted in social media, twitter and facebook, and then i am i i propose a public intellectual. At this point i am- and i spent twenty five years learning what i learned and part of that education is paid for by the public and now i'm looking for every opportunity can't get back and to help other people be hatchet and we all collectively faced up to the climate crisis. No one can do everything, but everyone can do something in helping as many people as possible to do the thing they can. When i want to thank you for doing a person, i think of them. The information that was provided through your office with some of the highest quality information on environmental issues to be found anywhere and was incredibly useful to anybody who was doing activists work on the ground in terms of being able to translate science into public policy, an explicit kinds of things we could do tomorrow to make a difference. I want to thank you for that, and i also want to thank you for your ongoing rose in in in continuing to put information out there. Clearly, ford may have wanted to silence you, but he's not been entirely successful. He's been able to do it in the interim terms of getting your europe former office button clearly hasn't succeed in silencing you, which were all thankful for that. Thank you for doing this, but i thank you so much terri. I appreciate your supplied patient on your show and i encourage all jealous. I have half a century ago. We all have to do right now. Ok, thank you for taking the time to day and good luck with the launch of your new laptop practice ankle so much tat. They had taken care of great apache, ticker, bye, bye, diane sacks provided a whole bunch of information during that interview and to help us on pack some of the details associated with. Without it we are joined by caroline colbrand former and current or former president incurred board member of environment haliburton and a former lawyer. I understand, caroline, that you were. You went to school with jerry di marco who's. The current incumbent of the much diminished commissioner of the environment position inside the offices of the auditors general. So you had a chance to listen to that interview. What sure? What's your take on on some of the key points that that diana raised well, she certainly have covered a lot of territory. Am i with sam nunn about this discouraged or depressed or angry? I think the more i think about it. The angrier i get the foreign government has been pretty deal. Yes, i think that's. The best adjective i can think of it seems like we still have an environmental commissioner didn't think the title kind of still exists, but that position has disappeared into the auditor general's office and many points she made absolutely true. She pointed out how she was mandated to issue three reports a year. That's not the case. With the new situation, the auditor general has put out one report on the climate change risk chapter three of a bigger report. The report is a hundred and eighty three pages, and it takes a lot of digging to even to find the information is already three pages on the environment. Inside of a huge document was deals with every financial issue that right agreed upon. We imagine related to the provincial government jerry di marco. Yes, indeed, he yam. He made a big impression and second year university, he had been to the rio summit in june. Ninety two and came back to school and gave a talk on what he learn. Therein was very him. I was impressed, though it over the years, i've kind of noticed when he's moved from position to position and when he got that job he was praised to the skies by environmental groups and colleagues other lawyers. Apparently he was the runner up for diane. Sax is job when she got it, so everybody was thrilled, but he's disappeared. It's hard to find anything. I mean he's just staff person in that office are much diminished position. Money, yeah, just invisible, we're dyin with so out there. You know talking to people and i'm sure jerry's capable, but i haven't heard much haven't heard anything of them. Well, i think it's a structural thing in many respects, because the the rules under which the market operating have been determined for him on the public educational mandate has gone in. That's reflected in exactly what's happening, he's not out there he's not gonna twitter account he's not out there on the circuit. Basically, advertising the latest, the latest report and point out has only been one at diane's access office did an average of three and and then some special reports. In addition to that, i think, in a little over two and a half years, seventeen reports i came out from her office, so yea its structural change, which was designed as they diane's view d. Basically, no silence silence the messenger that that is the impression i got and i think of those reports when she came up to haliburton to speak to us a couple of years ago. She had all these beautiful, interesting diagrams and turn fold out reports very accessible made me you wanted to go deeper and learn some zactly. I've never seen a well. I don't know if there's a hard copy of the of the report that tat the auditor general put out, but it's dance and filled with betboron church, but me you're right and the interesting thing in her interview that thing that that sort of astonished me was, she alluded to the to the direction from the foreign government that that government departments could no longer use infographic s. Eye with infographic are images to explain. Government reports that there was an edict came out a sigh. I think that that would be the case, but she said it because she was independent. She could she ignored that that particular directive, but clearly there's no one for graphics associated with the otter general's report so well, and apparently the auditing generally supposed to be independent as well. However, it appears that david here to that directive, so other than the changes to the way in which the office operates in a public presence. She also alluded to some things regarding the environmental, biller rights and so forth. The process for for making appeal has changed, so you in fact go to the ministry where you have the problem which she referred to is putting their box in the hen house right. You may send a copy to the auditor general, but it just sounds like we don't really want to have this work right in her all. She had to police that actively because, mr, even though you might think that government departments would adhere to government rules, what she said was a when she came into office. There was some eighteen hundred postings that had not been finalized become, and you can appeal until his finalize, and so the government was dragging its feet. Even governments, suburb, presumably much more in favour of environmental regulation. She had to work really hard to clean them. Up now, with the minister, the environment charge, which is under the direct political authority of the of the cabinet minister in charge, that's gonna be a whole bunch more difficult. Indeed, so anything else extra struck you about her. We are well. We talked about them forbidding info graphics. The other thing that was a surprise to me was that apparently the government is how to say this. The natural gas cousin customers, people who are currently buying natural gas are now subsidizing the expansion of the network of pipe lines, and this was something that that board. The ford government asked the ontario energy board about noon. They said, no, you shouldn't do that, but then they gonna hadn't done it anyway, a cycle. Actually, what happened was as the companies, the gas in african countries applied to the under energy board for the right order that our existing customers for the expansion costs of of expanding pipelines across ontario and the board said no on economic on economic grounds means that it was not appropriate for current natural gas customers to bear the burden of of the costs of expanding natural gas pipelines within that decision got overridden by the bye ford cabin. They said no, no. This is an appropriate thing. We want to have expansion, natural gas pipelines. We want. We think that is appropriate for natural gas customers to a due to bear the burden of that caso didn't. This would be the natural gas proposal from union hills. It will it into ties into that, because the warden's cacus for eastern ontario has for a long time been lobbying for the extension of the natural gas pipeline, but now terminates in finland falls into halliburton harry now. The only way we're just gonna happen was with significant subsidy, either from current customers or a direct subsidy from that from the governor of ontario, because it's just not enough customers appear in order to want to warrant the other day infrastructure costs of doing that. But that's presumably one of the things that dead that would get an impetus if existing customers are gonna have to pay for the expansion of the pipeline in halliburton. Canny aims. I only interesting. I also think it's kind of it and using almost that's the thing is called natural gas, but i dont think is really natural. It's still fossil fuels will absolutely nothing about it. I suppose naturally produce, but it does have a very serious impact on the environment and extending that kind of pipeline into haliburton county. Would would you you, when you do things like that? That creates a dependency on that infrastructure for life or the of that infrastructure being an existence, and that would be sixty seventy plus years, and so we re investing in locking in some sense our county into. Am i a carbon intensive so less than coal? But it's still not. It sets carbon intensive into into haliburton county the other day. The other thing it struck me that the air that went when she was she was talking about the m e novi, the expansion of the or the the the change that they for government. For some municipalities with respect to urban sprawl, the previous government had had had some density controls as smart growth, so called smart growth plan. You know where you had ever density of approximately eighty individuals and by people or jobs per hectare in that was a target that would be designed to support economically support public transit based on the property tax, and that's me now been cut in half at that flew under the radar screen. For me, i didn't realize that, and she called that ontario oil sands in terms of its impact, which show which i thought was an interesting thing which i i just haven't, paid enough attention to, and so that's gonna have a dramatic impact on ontario community's ability to actually addressed the climate crisis right, and the other thing that she reminded us about was all the money that was wasted by the fort government in breaking all those contracts for renewable energy project rain, and she pointed out that most of those contracts were with schools and hospitals and public buildings. There wasn't subsidies to people, they were going to actually reduce the costs above a publican institutions operating lower their energy costs. Yes, some seven hundred and fifty and oh and green energy projects castle, just like that overnight and there's gonna, be some consolation costs associated with that man around two hundred million dollars. In terms of we talk about em, they talk about saving money, but they turn around and wastes tons of it breaking contracts. Right so i mean it seems to me that term, in others lots that we ve lost with the change that occurred with for trying to restrict the messenger around around environmental round environmental issues. I enter a pushover where we ve really lost someone who was charged with bringing these sorts of issues to our attention of making indira independent reports to the legislature of telling inconvenient truth and speaking truth to power, and now we have a much more diminished capacity to said to to do those sorts of things within the new office of the commission or the environment. So we ve lost something that may significant. Then they are over the past year, yet she she made the point that term. Her reports are hard to find. Now they are possible to find- and i figured what we could do is we could put a link on the environment, halliburton website and say if you want to find the environmental commissioner of ontario former reports go here, what she's done it she put all of those reports. All seventy knows report she did when she was environmental commissioner, on her new website, which is called sacks facts, dot com and will do a link on on the planet. Haliburton website too, along with a series of other resources about time about the about this conversation that we had with was sacked and from anybody who wants to take a deeper dive in italy at any of the issues that she's raised so um yeah. It's not as o d, oughter generals hiding those reports, but they are not as easy to find out for sure you're sort of mixed up with all of her own reports near i haven't checked to see if they go right back to the beginning, but they promise they would do that. Yeah i mean initially when they first took over, they actually had our a reference to the old website and you can see it. All you have to do is hit a button. If you want to climate change or portugal at the climate change button, you wanted environmental protection report. She had that button. In its the same with energy conservation, it was a lot easier access and they ve made that more difficult for sure. Well, thanks for this army, i encourage people to to to have a look at some of those resources visit. The sacks facts. Dot com website is a great source of information on the on the environment. Thanks for this, you quite ahem. Thank you for listening and just a reminder. The planet hellburners broadcasts on the second of last monday's of each month from seven to eight p m and reappeared on the following saturday. Between seven and eight, a m ass episodes can be streamed off the website or found in all major podcast platforms such as itunes, google play and spotify. Just a few words about planet halliburton theme song is called gratis on. I want you to panicked by the sweet genes, one thank karen and jelly co authors of this peace for their wonderful tribute to the timber and their agreement, to let us use it as the theme song from planet halliburton, that's gratis on. I want you to panic and that's available through a link on our website and on our progress. Thank you for joining us brought to you by one hundred point: nine canoe, fm community radio from the halliburton highlands visit, canoe, fm dot, com for more