brought to you by one hundred point nine canoe fm community radio from the halliburton highlands visit canoe fm dot com for more callow i'm terry more and this is planet halliburton planet haliburton takes a critical look at the human impact on ecosystems and support all life on the planet from the climate crisis to the health of haliburton lakes and forests to how we manage human and material waste plan halliburton sees global and local perspectives as two sides of the same coin we value your comments questions and suggestions so please email me a planet halliburton a canoe fm dot com on this episode a planet halbert we discuss the climate crisis and antivirals boreal forest in discussion surrounding the ways and means of slowing down stopping and eventually reversing our human caused climate crisis as well as adapting to the changes already locked in due to past greenhouse gas emissions a lot of emphasis being placed on the world's forests is huge and virtually inexhaustible carbon storehouses all serious climate change plans point to the need for large scale reforestation programmes as a key means of drawing down carbon from the atmosphere at the same time there is a growing awareness that the world's remaining intact forests are themselves under huge and growing pressure from human logging agricultural practices as well as disease drought and while farmers like those that burn one point five million acres surrounding former murray in our burden two thousand sixteen and those now engulfing large areas of australia as we speak but just how healthy our canadian and hunter of forests and what role can they play in addressing the climate crisis the entire government's two thousand and twelve state of the ontario forest report concludes that ontario crown for us coming some two thirds of antivirals landmass are actually a net source of atmospheric carbon emissions and are expected to remain so until at least two thousand and forty at the same time the dug for government recently released a draft for a sector strategy that calls for a doubling of current logging volumes as part of a plan to quote reduce barriers and costs attract investment and innovation to promote economic growth create jobs and demonstrate that ontario is open for business unquote before government has also given notice of impending changes to how environmental assessment rules apply to forest management plans and practices in ontario now in the midst of all of this the wild lands legged chapter of the canyon parks and wilderness society or see pause has just released a report entitled logging scars based on extensive on the ground research taking a hard look at the forest management climate change implications of logging road and landing deforestation and antivirals boreal forest to help us better understand the role that ontario forest can and do play in limiting in adapting to the climate crisis and the significance of the logging scars report in that regard were joined by dave pierce the forest conservation manager or the wild land sleepwalk into planet haliburton dave ferrie so let's start with some background on the wild lands league and your role within that organization could you tell listeners what the while lonely is and what it does and as well as what your particular role within the organization is so the wildly is a nonprofit environmental conservation organisation and we work on protecting wild landscapes mostly ontario but we do extend our reach across the country on occasion were expertise it is required that this means working to establish protected areas and making sure there well man managed but also working outside those protected areas which are rather limited with industry community groups indigenous indigenous groups and communities to make sure that resource development is more sustainable in the attack had protected areas and then be his habitat is conserved and my particular role i'm my title his horse conservation manager so where my primary duties is as i tell my relatives are my forestry nag doktor forest companies and the governments try to get them to obey their own rules and improve rules and and not impose things like forest stewardship council certification to try to improve forestry practice about where a lotta hats as well do around here and i work on establishing new protect there is in the end have an aerial ok will thank you for that and so it s now talk a little bit about how you came and how the league came to the public the logging scars or no it was published in december of two thousand nineteen coincident with the recent united nations conference of the parties the twenty fifth conference of the parties that met in madrid and i take it that the that the timing of the release emphasised was meant to emphasise the organizations view of the importance for climate change policy debates going on in ontario canada and indeed around the world so before we get into some of the other details with regard to the findings of the report itself how do you view the world's forests from a climate change perspective as well as the relative importance of canada and ontario forest canada's material force within that overall context like to say that although the release was co coincident with the cop twenty five it wasn't coincidental nor have we planted that way ok yeah anyway ho ho our view globally is that intact forest especially are carbon sinks in there and have an important role to play in maintaining climate vanity and once a fourth is managed that carbon storage capacity suffers and there's very little evidence that it would regulate it does recover to its former carbon storage aid and better than lying scar as does the report does not show further simply why why that's the case you're losing land at two roads landing them and other other infrastructure one of the reasons to globally there there are five really great intact forests left in the world got the congo basin in the amazon rainforest in the amazon basin you got indonesia and from the surrounding areas have the boreal forest a russia which is they call the tiger sadly boreal forest and then you get the poorer forced of north america which is mostly canada and also ask as well so from geopolitically the canadian moral when you think of the political situation and the rule the rule of the rule of law from the other countries have been an evil unfortunately the united states is questionable now three look view politically i think the cleaning boiler has the most nice chance to be successful in conservation and is also from the most carbon damn landscapes or not just the trees but particularly in the soil canada has russia has as well but a lot of high density high carbon desi soils peat land which are essentially a huge reservoir of carbon meters and metres deep and canada have from the most garments landscapes in the world in ontario and particular i've heard it calm referred to as the fort knox of carbon bank the huge had had the mail and which are largely peat and wetlands complexes stored tenant under carbon in the bee who you think narrowing and globally cotton emily and am and then eventually ontario the re strategic and central role to play in protecting stable climate in it boil horse ok so now having certain set on terrorism burial or boreal forests dinner in a larger context and in the fact that its strategic of strategic importance what caused the wetlands league to become interested in studying the impact of logging in ontario moral forest well about half of the boil in ontario is public tourist management so right away or you're looking up large impact one way or the other when you say sorry just interrupts per second when you say that is subject to forest management does that mean that its effectively licence tend to people who are going along it is that what that means the assets divide up and enough anymore madam ten years that i have life of his two two horsemen for companies with leave the forest itself is still or is it more generally are completely on crown land though when we were talking and that's part of our mandate is work on public land are groundless and who ninety percent of that forest is is crown land of actual surface area by them but the licences tenure licences apply exclusively to crown land when they pose within those tenders nothing clarifying the question so that others there is potential for huge impact it is because of that fifty plan a boreal is his life but also the distance the biodiversity value of the boil a breeding ground for three billion of north american birds not just some terrible monetary across north amerika three million birds fly up in the spring to breed and five million birds fly so in the hall till there there's someone successful in him and then they knocked backers winters the hardest time migration earnest i got back about three billion we have three billion birds using this worse for breeding which is is huge and also the last refuge for iconic and threatened species like like woodland caribou like wolverine and then at the terrestrial linked to this vast and prolific inland sea we call hudson bay in ontario through all the rivers or most of the rivers in in the northern half of the boreal forest pulling out at an end aims languages for the programme to be who we we regard as important we ve been involved for years and studying and looking at the impact of logging the boil them particularly with care caught our attention too to initiate this report was we do a lot of traveling in the north we fly by plane to get around and we know these signatures on the landscape ball patches of work and a stitch together by roads and driver has to link the author of the report in particular he really told him how old are you a bomb patches are they gonna regrow trees and eight i like what's the mechanism that carding them how significant are they what what especially extend and they really reminded him of digital wound that his ten year old daughter have she's got an active young kid and you got a number of scars and an stitches on her body and that's where that idea the panel logging scars came about he was looking at these over the years and really raising all these questions like what what's going on here and how he had taken upon himself the really big internet question and find out what's going on ok so maybe some more some background details will now be useful in how the study accurately what we are looking at how were you looking at it and well how did you decide what to put under the microscope yeah so probably aware we were we were crossed the boreal but but but a preponderance of our work has been in northwestern ontario alpha minorities but allowed some folks are northwestern under her he raises there's this large urban populations many many herds in that area we we had a long standing work with some force companies in that area and forest stewardship council certification and other initiatives are very familiar with the landscape also it was chosen because there is accessibility road access this to get out there to keep our budget under things under budget when we're doing fieldwork and the availability of remote sensing data who we want to go back in time as possible an able to verify ok winded these cutbacks we occur and never looked at getting a variety of cuts going back as far as thirty five years the average around twenty eight years old but he wanted them some younger cuts to compare and say this is process still happening in that in the more recent cap payments it happened three years ago i wanted look at some winter roads forces some arose because his hypothesis was that there would be a difference in the earth some some difference between winter and summer harvesting those considerations went into where we did the study and as a huge areas it it covered thirty five thousand square kilometers of more than four and a half times the size of a golf ball park basically from the website of lake never gone halfway to the manitoba border and from the transcanada highway about us north ass he can go traveling blocking roads and ever spent two summers accessing and number twenty seven site they chose and spent two summers day three doing groundbreaking and verification of what was actually happening on the ground anthony type he documented state roads the landings what what was covering member with trees what was there with a bare earth with grass was to replant what was the evidence of what was causing these areas not come back and tree covered and he actually flew a drone learn to and bought fluid drone give them clear low level videos or feel verification about the the extent of these these patches and then back back in the lab not really a lamp had adopted painstakingly digitized the roads the landings so we could figure out the dew idea really simple j f exercise but it was very required a lot of patience if we outlined these road the landing of any outlined the size of the cut back and so we can compare the size of the roads and landings for the better the whole cut back and that's where he got the percentage of all the roads atlantic from those covered by these features and then extrapolated because over the sample size than do the whole problem and extrapolate to the amount of unfair that higher said using the same methods of overtime and i'm based on the average amount of carbon storage in that stored in a hacker forest is able to ask me the carbon guy on forest law i covered rarebit aground ok so lets that that was really helpful i think that one of the things i like to have to focus on is because i've been generally paying attention to issues related to deforestation and some of the contested territory with respect to that and forest companies natural resources canada and the entire government may have all it seems to me taken they the position historically based on their data and their analyses that there's a near zero zero level of deforestation having indicate in canada and in ontario others like this is suki foundation and other folks in yourselves included have questioned that assertion but now you're studies produced some new numbers that i guess you're hoping will reopen the discussion what conclusions does the logging scars report reach with respect to the amount of deforestation occurring as a result of logging roads and landings and why has this been missed by others while the amount but total amount is staggering i was i was blown away when trevor did his is the mouth with immense projections when he found was that almost twenty two thousand hectares per year are actively being deforested so that equals about forty thousand football fields people know what all feel the effects of a good comparison and then over the last thirty years that total adds up and there's an extrapolation from from the results of the study over six hundred fifty thousand actors in addition it has been actively deforested in the last thirty years and that the size of lake michigan or ten times the size of city toronto or about eighty five percent of the size of about one part per year listeners fell they'll know that's a that's a huge area and you know we wondered ike how could this be men in and we think we know there there's a couple reasons for that one was the assumption that at least some of these road unmanageable rollback foresters have been telling us over the years while you know in the really hammered pieces probably will grow back until the next rotation but mostly spaces are gonna comeback bill of the uno forces re resilient built the fourth the trees will grow back the other was at the national scale who is a federal government's responsibility too report these internationally on climate responsibilities the lands which they used was very course because imagine in other i'm the cover up huge lands landscape to do things efficiently and cost effectively as i believe that the detail there looking at what it allowed them or enable them to miss these individually small but cumulative cumulatively huge impact and the analogy i use it like coming in from the cold and a warm house with your glasses on any fog up and you can see well enough to avoid the furniture and of stumble over that try to find your car keys or in i'll pick up a toy the small toilet you're jealous dropped and you know you think i'm off you have them better resolution and that's it effectively whatever that he looked at things with a higher resolution and so and when you do that they pop out here i want to remind listeners that your listing the planet halliburton a canoe affirm and today we're talking with said david pierce with the violence league about the leagues recent report entitled logging scars call letters frequency one hundred you're listenin to canoe them welcome back to planet halliburton were i want to remind everybody britain talking to david peers of the wetlands league about the recent report issued by the league entitled logging scars what are you saying basically with respect to why they why they missed this is that they were using a land suggested now high enough resolution yeah that's that's one of the key areas of them that their sort of the confirmation bias we assume they're gonna come back so we're not come in i really looked at her because she's already got this assumption that these things don't really matter they do obviously so the report places much blame for greece as i read it places a lot of the blame for the deforestation caused by logging roads and and landings on the doorstep of a practice long associated with clear cut logging in the boreal forest known as full tree harvesting what is that what is poultry harvesting and why does this study point the figured this practice and and well i guess it similar to that will be why is that method so preferred by the logging companies to poultry murray everything is a method by which the trees were cut down away from the road by a feller heller buncher island stacks and anna skinner comes along grabs a pilot trees and impose the whole tree from a stump up my ass the root out the roadside and at the roadside either their stacked in huge files they are the limits are removed from the unfortunate but part of a tree with a rod or if it's too small diameters chopped off laughed and then they got up and put on an attraction the machinery that does this went up and down on the roadside and the reason why this this this method is so harmful because it takes a huge area alone the roadside and then the machinery compact that soil because i imagine that heavy machinery running over it forestalling at the logs and then you gotta make some sort of debate that comply with the cut them up and deal in them the other running over the land and then you ve got all the what's gonna flash which asean unmentionable burnt to the tree and then sometimes whole trees are left of unmentionable speaking just aren't profitable the ring out at that particular time for economic reasons and so you ve got the compaction that's why you ve got left over trees on a site and it is down to the ground down and mothers it so that nothing but grasses mosses small shrubs and grass blackberries and things can grow in a limited amount of time and that the process of poultry armitage and why so implacable and why companies do it i think it's because its efficient its relatively low cost the machinery to do this it is cheaper than from a more sophisticated machines that would do this at the stump so to speak in the forest and spread that flash and those impacts around who will be left left in them condemned and more spread out through the whole harassed and then because a petition am an effect of cost effective they like a lot of their some gossip over everybody machinery so there's a impediment to switching to something a bit more sustainable and i take it that the government which which regulates forest management practices on crown lanes as well as the companies that audit in wonder the and the sustainable crown forces act and so on in ontario they also support the this apple tree harvesting process as opposed to harvesting in the bush dasso so the government may i please ask play some restriction on earth is not allowed on certain sites that are like hypersensitive and the initial fear was it would lead to a lack of nutrients in the forest because essentially leaving very little behind or relatively little behind in the forest and began all hitler wrote i too see the forest so to speak be the poorest the atom disrupting the natural hurdle either for the next crop of trees so that with the initial fear and and it was allowed under the original on environmental assessment with conditions animals must be public subject to review and they haven't the trouble is lead and follow up and they didn't really review the impact and nobody thought about this effect of deforestation again because people have this confirmation bias can use that term where they thought about these effects are gonna be small sum we're gonna be a femoral there in all the trees are gonna go back and so we don't really have to worry about that aspect and just because people were looking at it and again even with the ata day much going on under the ground for sustainability acted like people didn't really pick up on that i am smile but human willoughby important adding up of others and back so the study estimates by two thousand and thirty that the loss of productive forest ontario alone due to clear cataloguing practices that have this poultry harvesting attached to it will cost canada about forty one million tonnes of carbon dioxide foregone removals than carbon dioxide that would not otherwise be removed from the atmosphere which is equivalent as far as the report rightly recalled a report saying is the emissions from all passenger vehicles annually in the country now with the results of the logging scars report cut we do think that they that this this number that you that you have generated with respect to the carbon implications will cause canadian garments to reassess their carving accounting practices and who with or without domestic changes do you think that canada's international carbon accounting processes and reduction targets will come under closer scrutiny so we think we got people's attention we know we ve gotten some serious feedback from the federal government that further in other well aware of this report and their taking it very seriously but we are worried because bureaucracies are notoriously slow to change their practices and the reluctant to admit mistakes from in our experience so i really think it's gonna take a lot of the general public poison concerns for them to really change their accounting practices and so i'd like that they take this opportunity encourage people were concerned to contact their mps in their amputees let them know you know they ve heard of this report that concern them what our governments doing about it and i know this is already brought a higher level of scrutiny to these practices worldwide and people people are watching canada on a number of other organizations have picked up this report may be expanded on it but their own land something in united states globally report was picked up in the manchester guardian and globally we know awareness has never been higher on the climate change issue and people know that it intact healthy forests are a key natural storage bank requirement an add on one of the things we need to do to to protect these healthy forests intact forests especially i may not a key k strategy on fighting climate change and the various about what they want if any information or feedback you ve got from other canadian provinces because as i understand it the poultry harvesting and piggy back don't click on harvesting is the dominant approach and british columbia across our burden the prairies and about fifty percent of the logging practices that are taking place in quebec so first off do you think that the results of your study are ontario are really the tip of the iceberg with respect to what's going on across the country and do you think that time or has those jurisdictions with other jurisdictions expressed any interest in seeing your findings from this report so you're iraq poland area the place where the most poultry harvesting is that the highest percentage and their fathers their similar patterns similar use it it elsewhere and we know that only seventy percent of all logging in canada them down in ontario so in a worst case scenario you can have this could be you can multiply this by thick eventually had to come up with with how much deforestation is happening across the country because of this type of practice and even if they're not not using poultry everything went there there is deforestation going on other jurisdictions reaching out to us you were coming i haven't heard anything from the governments but definitely other environmental groups in other parts of the country are asking us how can how could they replicate this study in their part of the world and were also encouraging people to go on line on google earth why in a clear cut near you and you know let us know about it just have a look even without doing me be the detailed analysis to look at how much likelier tat is covered by roads and landings and these rectangular features and linear features in the landscape and how much of that it do you think it's gonna come back before their there i was again arrested again in within the next century okay i take it that the presumption on the part of the logging companies is that these roads are gonna be used again in the sense that there will be another rotation will come back and try to cut again on the same property by large most of the major roads in order in the plan that they welcome return on those road bobby uses landing and again the mutware recalling the fact of deforestation we ve only like thirty five thirty four years at the most and that in the past and what is happening now but you know most of these rotations are around eighty years so in another fifty years or the commission does not get me many trees on that site and another and back again soaks in commenting on the findings contained in the logging scars report janet sumner executive director the wetlands weakest quoted as saying unquote is clear to me that industry should no longer be permitted to open up the last remaining intact boreal forests in canada in a climate crisis if enter on other provincial governments were to end the practice of full tree harvesting with that stop the problem or does it go well beyond that it would reduce the magnitude of the problem but even without forty harvesting there's other logging off road building that cause essentially the same same impacts may be slightly smaller scale so you always whenever doing force read you need roads in some sort of landing the process you stuff even if you're not being in the whole tree out you might reduce the size of landings but there are still gonna be landing in it you know the date unless your helicopter logging there's really no other way to extract the landscape so the odds are essentially going to be permanent presidency of the forest landscape yeah an end in some in some cases you know in in clear cutting you gotta in all seventy eight hundred year rotation we re come back and in your part of the world and my prayer the world they always alley where i grew up there they do mostly election harvest for example algonquin park there still in all well over fifty percent of that of the market of logging there over eight thousand kilometers of roads that are permanently deforested and in this election harmless they come back every twenty five thirty years and take a portion of the stand out and to do that you basically need permanent road there s people would be supply problem people would be surprised to know that that level of logging continues and duncan part at sir that that was surprising to me when one night we when you mentioned at the other day we have a saying that it's not it's not apart but allows logging industrial down that allows canoeing a way of getting people's attention and eight or that they do hide it very well and you know some people argue that it's the most sustainable logging in the world but our view we originally called the algonquin wildly and we are agreed on the otter was getting getting commercial forestry out above all good part and it just doesn't doesn't belong in a park archer for other purposes not for timber but at any rate that is an example of that though they fell the glamour the roads the keeping of them having a thirty meter right away with that adds up to twenty four thousand actors that are effectively while they are thirty forest it has not just implications for forest management it's got implications for biodiversity it's gotta implications are this is we ve been talking about further with respect to its climate impact yeah well in and in that case we were talking about the great lakes they aren't forests which in which the trees can be compared to the boil that the above ground biomass the trees themselves are generally larger there's more diverse data the great greater range of side classes they get a lot more carbon per hectare in the trees and how did you do the boreal forest but about a third more so the carbonate back her quite large as i mentioned in the introduction for government has just released proposed forest strategy for sectors tragic calling for a doubling of the current harvesting blames what do you think the impact of increase harvesting on this kind of scale will have on both the sustainable forest management goal as well as on cereals and canada's ability to meet the paris climate agreement commitments so if we double the harvesting and we assume that we're gonna keep on doing poultry armistice ontario so we're in a double those impacts so instead of having forty thousand football field each year being deforested i'll be eighty thousand football field so by twenty thirty winner erik climate commitments come due and were supposed to be reducing era our emissions by thirty percent compared to two thousand five ontario will have grown that deforestation the forested area by four hundred thousand hectares will have a million hectares of backlog of carbon debt and it doesn't have to be that way because we don't need all that forest and the fourth industry actually get by with quite a lot less than doubling that we can have a quite a healthy forest industry a smaller amount of ground and i guess impart that get that touches on something which we have to organise in a completely different discussion about but that raises the question of production of in the forest for whom and what are we producing and most of this is produced for export markets eyes not to meet domestic need its two trees are cotton products are maiden and a lot of this stuff is shipped out of the country the imo or where a roguish all market an extra one hand on her as big as essen and across the sea from my even bigger ones in china too will never fix that population amounts but where we could do we could realise more than at home we could do more value added before we shipped it off in instead of doing tat to my boys and rob to be made into products elsewhere we can make them here and then export those products and we can actually have more jobs per per tree cut and we ve been advocating for years about that but would take some sophisticated althea duff adjustments for sure please i want to remind the house once again that you're listening to planet halliburton a canoe a famine we're having a discussion today with dave peers of the wetlands league about climate change and the boreal forest of me with the recent release of thee while lang's report wisely report called logging scars really take a few a break for a few messages from sponsors and other thing others those sorts of other things and and we'll be back in a few minutes legally where c k l j but you know what has one hundred point nine canoe fm welcome back to planet halliburton where i want to remind everybody we're talking to david peers of the wetlands league about the recent report issued by the league entitled logging scars so the the ford government has also announced very recently a number of changes proposed changes to the environmental regulations regarding two environmental assessment regulations on the environmental registry and they they posted those for comment i look what are those proposed changes and will they make the problems that are the debt be but you ve been identifying in the logging scars report more difficult to address yes oh there's a number of initiatives that or concerned about that potentially reduce oversight and restrictions on logging and one of them is or permanent exemption of forestry to the endangered species act and the rationale for this is that there is another piece of legislation call the crown for sustainability act that is really enabling legislation for the industry and it is partly about how to do forestry and try to minimize impact on species and habitats and salmon industry say that this is sufficient for that purpose we don't need another piece of legislation we need you to be exact but that's not true you can you can minimize damage to speak but there are still gonna be impact and a species can still go extinct why're you know keep minimizing those impacts and for example raising this with cariboo since twenty thirteen the requirements under the endangered species act have been suspended and in cariboo range which is in the boreal forest mostly in the northern part of the area that open for forest management and and and further north we see increasing disturbance cariboo populations continue continuing to decline and so an endangered species act was brought him because these enabling laws like the usa the groundwork sustainability act or are not enough it is mitigate and they they disputed act was probably implemented would provide actual protection to speak at risk not just mitigation and so in in our vision if the usa was implemented correctly you'd be actually protecting larger in the boreal forest for species like cariboo which are threatened four wolverines or other species and you'll be minimizing the areas that would be that without these bodies further back and then outside those areas and we worked before us companies all kinds of thinking about this you could do more winter logging which does have the added benefit of the road bed being less permanent through the road is better able to be reforested landings are still there if you doing poultry are anything but a combination of winter harvesting and a more benign system that now as has as many are as big as well landing of large could be used outside of your protection zones to to try to reduce the harm on cairo between but you knock em it there's no way we're gonna get that level of cooperation without they force the legal force of fully implemented endangered species act so is the proposal that they ve that before government has is tabled on the environmental registry is out in the form of an actual draft legislation or a bill has been tabled or is it really at the talking stage and at the stage where they were they out for real comment before they actually move forward drafting legislation the additive they re little details of it they dont have wording and in place by one of the proposals on there's five sixty different ossing media empire murat history of ontario the arrow of alcohol and one of those it is essentially to remove the to create what they call the duplication of endangered species back what you're saying is that that's not a duplication that's actually the central protection absolutely ok i guess that's under the rubric of just increasing as we are talking about the region for therefore the reason for their force sector strategy seems to be to increase production increase jobs and increase opportunities for companies to deter turn the forest in the products that that's their stated goal i mean this is our friend come progressive companies that we work with an authority on analysis shows that that probably isn't even realistic because overestimated the amount of force that could be used for commercial forestry and in others high quality of the species might not be there and how that can be used for habitat it may not be perfect forestry but it is good for a while by habitat and so there's other there's other economic values that could be found and in protecting forests as opposed to logging it yeah and you know it if that if the carbon economy ever ever took on you know that the dream would be that communities and am first nations force dependent communities could be actually paid to forego harvesting and actually do restoration and realize the benefits to the globe of keeping climate vanity keeping climate change within a arrange that we can actually handle okay so are there any other changes that have been proposed to one point two on the ear with respect to the environmental registry notifications the arab that's the main one we were still digging into it their announced over the holidays and horse was a surprise the little that they come back to you on monday morning to restore digging into the summer at the bottom of the table with the changes that were there you don't feel a permanent exemption for the ports industry another usa was was the one that got her attention the most okay so open a link up on the website along with links to the report that you ve done logging scars as well as a bunch of other background material were picked wilbur put a link to the environmental registry of ontario so people are so inclined they can look at the proposal and they can make their own comments might what's the deadline for their prithee responses in both their most of them are due on february eighteenth but there's a strange anomaly where what is commonly do generate wyatt earp if memory serves write it is the one where most worried about which has evolved thea endangered species act and so were were requesting that the rationale for that why why aren't they all do on the same day and why they speeding that went up and were actually asking for an extension on that day but we haven't heard back yet okay so you did mention this because really was a bit of a reference for the differences between the boreal forest and the saint lawrence lowlands forest i guess that's the forest that that that worryin hearing in halbert callaway the outer greatly remarks horse dounia and so there's a more selective harvesting is practised in this neck of the woods and but this had this this community is it's got a lot of forestry based employment with the with the private halliburton forest which is one of the largest employers in the county and the crown lands that surround or within the county that are being harvested by they bancroft meant in forestry company both of which by the way are certified by the the forest stewardship council so the first question i have ways ways whether or not the same sorts of levels of concern and i think if you mentioned this a bit the same source of us level of concern with respect to the the sort of hidden impact of logging roads is is prevalent in this neck of the woods as well as the barrel and then i'd like to talk to you about about the force a forest stewardship council little bit but what do you think about the impact in this type of forest oh you're right there's very little clear cutting going on and emigrate likes it or as far as that is really a mixed bag kind of transition for us from a southern hardwood to northern conifer dominated for us he got you got everything you ve got boreal species yet species are found in florida red maple come all the way down to florida it's really a mixed bag oh but there is very little clear cutting that goes on in its most like to harvest and you dont where were we are not anti forestry by enemies what we'd make these happens of course we need the right size and particularly particularly now in a climate of modernity i think we need them to be really honest and accurate in when we're doing our accounting and what are the impact of forestry and weigh them again the benefits of having more areas aside or having a bit of a lighter footprint less expensive road network and ass he had even with the election system slightly system selective harvest where you taking out maybe thirty percent of a stand at one time and then you go back in over twenty five years later in those trees have grown and you go back and aunt em you know the actual cutting it looks much more benign and a clear cut but those road impacts are there and we just have to account for them and try to mitigate them try to reduce road footprint there are alternatives even within this election system that people are moving to using with collar forwarder which is a machine that allows you to all trees from further away and spend more on and instead of dragging them through the forester there on a little wagon in orange behind a machine and you actually reduce your your permanent road footprint quite a bit by by using this technology and this needs to be outside protected areas not in a moment where where it should be and so there is a number things could be done and but as we learn more about the value of intact forests and understanding trees in the fight against climate change you know her very pragmatic reasons very hard headed business day people are thinking about the value of of the trees this being left there you know let alone their biodiversity and at other ecosystems bunch of values an anesthetic but just for the carbon carbon that they're there might be more value leaving understanding and we know once you start managing a horse guess at the beginning its carbon storage capacity is is compromised it's already raised regardless it regardless of how a careful you are in terms of your forest management practices thought yet exactly so amy just behind my place on halls lincoln in algonkin highlands township of of haliburton county i went out snow showing the other day and right behind our place and some a backlog of that we have it surrounded by crown land and they logged in there and the this was done by the bancroft lyndon forestry company which asserted certified by the forest stewardship council but the i was shocked at the size of the hour logging rose i was much more anticipating relatively narrow cuts in order to create these logging roads in the landing areas but i was shocked at the size of these things there is some of them are huge and in so that has to have a very significant impact not only on on biodiversity but that's gonna have a significant impact on the carbon capacity that forest right because you know those all roads you know everything you are effectively permanent so who am companies and governments need to be honest and accurate in their accounting for these these impacts and i were were members and supporters of apathy and we support companies getting up if he certified and it is the certification of good forestry not perfect forestry and and there are in my minors unavoidable impacts once you start menu forest and we need to be honest about them account for them and tried to come up with the best land use given that given the clamour reality for him now well you know david i really want to thank you for taking the time to data to talk with us about the lord and scars report and all the other related stuff around a round your report and climate change in particular i love to dive into related topics like the forest stewardship council and the possibility of of tightening up some some provisions of that with respect to climate change implications but that will have to leave that for another day thank you for taking the time i hope you'll be prepared to come back and have a subsequent conversation in particular be interested in how how the report has received an and whether not any concrete action takes place as a result of it i hope there is the report really is i opening an dumb and really cries out for attention so thank you and i hope to have you back like you'd area it's been a pleasure ok you take care thereby bob i thank you for listening and just a reminder the planet however is broadcast on the second and last monday's of each month from seven to eight p m and reared on the following saturday's between seven and eight am asked episodes can be streamed off the website or found in all major podcast platforms such as itunes google play and spotify just a few words about planet halliburton theme song is called gratis song i want you to panicked by the sweet genes one thank karen and jelly co authors of this peace for their wonderful tribute to wear the timber and their agreement to let us use it as the theme song from planet haliburton s ready son i want you to panic and that's available through a link on our website and on our podcast thank you for joining us brought to you by one hundred point nine canoe fm community radio from the halliburton highlands visit canoe fm dot com for more